Comments on: Feedback in systems design, and a need for new terminology http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/ Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:53:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.8.1 By: Philip Morey http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7934 Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:58:57 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7934 Interestingly enough… there is a really obvious word to use for ‘to give information to a player’. Perhaps we could use the word “Inform”? After all, that is the definition.

I do live sound as a hobby, so I really hate getting feedback! ;)

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By: Eric http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7553 Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:21:01 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7553 Feedback seems like a good term.

When I hear reinforcement I think of classical conditioning, where reinforcement is a specific term for something you do to increase the frequency of the desired response. It’s the opposite of punishment and can be negative or positive, which aren’t exactly what you’d think they are (and can get confusing.)

I think feedback more as something that can be desirable (monitor speakers that allow the band to hear itself) or undesirable (a signal being reflected back into a radio and causing interference.) Both of these examples are a response to something that affects the following output.

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By: Zach Kamsler http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7551 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:27:03 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7551 I also tend to favor the more formal definition of positive and negative feedback. I also have a soft spot for control theory and system dynamics, and they are also used in this sense by a number of the sciences.

I don’t have a problem with the unqualified use of “feedback” in the colloquial sense, since information given to the player is also feedback in the technical sense (although its effect can be a change in player behavior rather than something intrinsic to the system and much thus less predictable). There can also be some overlap in usage. A reward can be construed as positive feedback if it allows the player to more easily get future rewards. A punishment may also be positive feedback (in the negative direction) if one ignores any impact on player behavior.

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By: Amanda http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7550 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:03:52 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7550 I don’t know if you’ve already read this article, but Sirlin calls the engineering feedbacks “slippery slope” and “perpetual comeback” http://www.sirlin.net/articles/slippery-slope-and-perpetual-comeback.html

I remember teaching out of a game design textbook that actually had these definitions backwards in the text. That made it extra confusing when I tried to disambiguate to the students that “positive feedback” in the engineering sense doesn’t mean always “a good thing.”

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By: Sparky Clarkson http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7549 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:01:15 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7549 The way you’re using “feedback” here mirrors the way we use it in biochemistry to describe, for instance, the regulation of metabolic pathways. So in that sense I don’t see any problem with what you’re writing, but of course once you start talking in a space where many fields are converging, then terminology can get confused. As such, I agree with the way you want to use ‘reinforcement’, but it is difficult to win a fight against a colloquialism.

Perhaps the discussion could be served by talking about the ends rather than the means. Negative feedback serves to stabilize or converge systems that have been perturbed, or to maintain them in a steady-state or equilibrium condition. Positive feedback encourages divergence, amplification of differences, and system instability. Using stability or equilibrium to talk about this will run us up against colloquialism again, because players perceive individual histories rather than averages. “Convergence” and “divergence” mechanics, or “amplifiers” and “dampers” might be useful ways to talk about mechanics or sets of mechanics that act in the way you describe.

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By: Jason http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7548 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:57:50 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7548 Thanks for this introducing this interesting question. It strikes me that something like ‘render’ would satisfy for “giving information to the player about the results of their actions,” precisely because there’s no inherent balancing effect implied: it’s simply output. The player does x, the system simulates environment with that data in mind, renders world (through text, video, audio, and/or haptics) for player–classic game loop.

Within that simulation step, however, is where the current game state is checked against the rules (is the temperature too high, too low?), applies balance mechanics (blue shell now available to player 7, who is in last place), all of which leaves ‘feedback’ available for the intent you describe above (and fits, I think the first two definitions in the link that Ralph Koster provided on twitter, more so than the last 3 he highlighted).

I’d note that while the blue shell seems a great example of negative feedback as you describe, it isn’t because someone is in first place, but rather it becomes *available* because someone is a certain distance behind. It’s not a direct punishment of the leading player, but rather a balancing negative feedback provided to the losing player, which seems somewhat counterintuitive. Using your definition, it’s technically appropriately ‘negative’ feedback because the losing racer is cold, and the system kicks the heat on. But colloquially it’s not negative because it potentially helps the losing player (which is a reward). As a counterexample: automatically throttling the speed of the leader player would be a negative feedback (and a penalty) for the lead player. In a sense, the blue shell is a great example of the linguistic tension you’re encountering, and why it’s tricky: implementing negative feedback in this case also serves as a reward for the (currently losing) player, whereas throttling is an example of negative feedback that serves as a penalty/punishment.

The *use* of the blue shell, on the other hand, is a traditional ousting/paralyzing move for many kinds of race games (cf Parlett) which represents interaction between players and arguably isn’t ‘feedback’ at all, but simply a ‘move.’

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By: Olly http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7547 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:51:34 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7547 would feedback serve for both but when referring to your systemic feedback could you use a prefix of some kind? containment feedback (negative) and escalation feedback (positive)? Just a thought.

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By: Tim Koch-Grunberg http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7546 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:35:51 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7546 “Feedback” in the sense of information given to the player is “player agency made visible”. Players act, the system reacts, and shows the outcome to the player. The problem lies in finding a suitable word to describe this. “Feedback” sort of stuck, and it just sounds pretty good.

What about “Response”?

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By: Sean Beanland http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7545 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:33:49 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7545 If we’re being idealistic, then I agree with that interpretation!

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By: Darius Kazemi http://tinysubversions.com/2012/01/feedback/comment-page-1/#comment-7544 Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:29:34 +0000 http://tinysubversions.com/?p=2126#comment-7544 Actually I think the opposite — “reinforcement” is a great candidate for the “giving information to the player” thing, because it implies a human intelligence and scolding/praise. It makes no sense for what I describe! (I’m in an idealistic mood today and more interested in what’s technically right than what people are likely to adopt.)

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